given that ESO has an established dogma I believe we should incorporate equivalencies into our lore. Akatosh would be our equivalent to Soldeus, and Talos being the ascended one would be Lucius.
Printable View
given that ESO has an established dogma I believe we should incorporate equivalencies into our lore. Akatosh would be our equivalent to Soldeus, and Talos being the ascended one would be Lucius.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Levald Aurelius
"Lucius" is not canon. That's a heresy.
I believe in Elder Scrolls lore, the Sun is technically "Magnus", with Julianos sometimes having an Apollo-like role.
His Majesty is correct. The Cult of Lucius was brought forward many years ago by The Usurper. While the Cult is mostly "harmless" and thus the Church chooses to let it be in the sake of avoiding an all-out war with the people at the time, it would be heresy to grant him official status within the lore. See the Cult of Lucius and the Church of Soldeus a little like... Protestant and Catholic.
I do believe it would be beneficial to incorporate our lore with the dogma of ESO, but it has to be done right. As I am currently recovering from multiple strokes, I will need a few weeks (if not months) rest. Maybe I can try when I feel a bit better.
I sm not sure if this is the right place to raise these concerns as I am not choosing to play ESO.Quote:
Originally Posted by Manus Dei
Forgive me for this double-you-tee-eff moment I am experiencing, Your Majesty. The comment of "Lucius is a heresy" strikes me as shocking at minimum.
This is what I have been preaching for the past seven months in Mortal Online. This was the premise upon joining the Clergy. This is what I've been collecting donations for. This is what I've been writing in-game books for over tens of painstaking, no backspace ability hours for.
Now it is heresy?
To add on what Father Varrick said. I thought the works of the Usurper is ok before he turned to the Dark Side. I thought the Sol Invictus was the heresy? I thought Lucius, considering his name is splattered all over the dogma, was a prominant figure in our belief.
If anybody can offer some reconciliation on this purely perceived contradiction it would be most helpful.
Many thanks.
Perhaps this important discussion could be moved to an appropriate forum, together with the posts on the subject made in the incorrect Church forum.Quote:
Originally Posted by Azidano Valkran
While not part of this discussion, I want to remind Azidano that if he gets excommunicated by the Church of Wessex, I would still consider giving him communion -and- to state generally that what has been seen cannot be unseen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Camarro Valkran
I believe that the excommunicant may attend the service of communion but not receive the sacrament. Anyone giving him or her communion risks interdict themselves. On the subject of unseeing what has been seen, I am assured that it is entirely possible given sufficient motivation - an "act of faith" as one might say.Quote:
Originally Posted by Casilda Tametomo
I didn't mean to derail the thread.
If somebody with administrative Ability would like to extract the relevant posts into another thread in the Church of Soldeus, it would bring this topic back on track, and allow me to voice my concerns.
I believe what may be useful is if the King has a fireside chat with all the Clergy. Myself, I am confused on certain aspects, and im supposed to be the expert.
Your Majesty, is this something you would be open to?
This is an excellent suggestion, Reverend Father.Quote:
Originally Posted by Varrick ChaosWielder
Our religion is full of culture, full of history. All of its complexities are something I cherish and give it the substance that I feel no other in-game religion has been able to achieve. We even have a schism! And as such, it is really something I cherish, which would probably explain my passionate outburst.
I am eager to learn more from the Head of the Church, His Majesty, Duke Manus Dei.
Thread contains posts moved from ESO thread
Thank you, Azzer :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Azzerhoden Razeri
I am a little confused now as well, In mine studies to become a Novice I read the Holy words of Soldeuse written by the hand of the Usurper, when he still has been enlightened by Soldeus, and I still believe these are the words of Radiant lord himself.
But as always Umbra has lurked in the shadow he found the way to Malachi mind and corrupted his spark with sin of lust of power, which have been the Dark ages of the Church of Soldeus. But we should not judge him for that and pray that the Usurper would be again ignited and guided be Soleus to the right path.
But the person of Lusius is still the incarnation of Soldeus in the scripture. But I will wait for the official explanation so they can guide me to the right path.
As for the Wessexe present in ESO i think we should not try to take the dogma of ESO for ours. All who are memmbers or wishes to join Wessexe should be taken the Church of Soldeus as their believes.
I understand that in the faraway lands are different kind of people and believes and they are a might beings of enormous power but they are just lesser gods and about them is Soldeus Ultimate being of Light and in the shadow lures Umbra as the corrupter to which the beings are just servants of their will. So all wessex members shuld guide the prays to Soldeus and just see the ESO good gods (don’t remember the names) as the servants of Soleus and the Deidric as Servants of Umbra.
Looks like the church has to figure out whether Malachi and his words were corrupt already before the usurpation or if the usurpation marks the point at which he falls as an apostle.
Indeed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Altus Whyte
It looks like it has reached a point where the Head of the Church, His Majesty, Duke of Wessex, would be required to make the executive decision on that. And as the Reverend Father Varrick has suggested a Fireside chat to clear up any misconceptions and disparities.
Lucius is as cannon as Soldeus, prior to this we knew him as Auros if I'm not mistaken.
I very much agree with this, at my current level of understanding.Quote:
Originally Posted by Levald Aurelius
But how do we reconcile this point-of-view with:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manus Dei
The independence of the Church of Soldeus is something else that could be discussed and explained. Judging by the Carta Solis it seems to fall somewhere between a sovereign church like the Vatican and a national church like the Church of England. It would seem that the Church of Soldeus is formally independent, but under crown authority.
Quote:
First, that we have granted to Auros, and by this present charter have confirmed for us and our heirs in perpetuity, that the Church under Hyperion, so long as its bishops shall follow our Crown to the exclusion of others, including that of the pontiff of Sanguine, shall be free, and shall have its rights undiminished, and its liberties unimpaired. That we wish this so to be observed appears from the fact that of our own free will, before the outbreak of the present dispute between us and king Robert of Mercia, we granted and confirmed by charter the freedom of the Church's ecclesiastic courts - a right reckoned to be of the greatest necessity and importance to the spiritual lords.
Wasn't Auros the old name of Soldues? I believe that's what I heard when Malachi published his first major writings as bishop.Quote:
Originally Posted by Levald Aurelius
Soldeus is Sol Deus, or "Sun God", also known as Auros. We are part of the Church of Auros, basically a faction with a Nave flavouring. While the main Church of Auros doesn't use the Creation Rites that the Church of Soldeus does, it uses very similar rites as well. Lucious is a Church of Soldeus only thing, that was introduced by The Usurper.
Sir Altus, may I remind you that by Church Decree that name is not to be spoken. He is to be referred to as "The Usurper". His name and grace has been stripped.
An issue that always irritated me is that Governor-General's have been given power to limit the church, while by the Carta-Solis our rights are to be undiminished, and liberties unimpaired. The Ecclesiatic Court has full freedom.
Each Church also is to have a Bishop sit on the Ecclesiastic Court, as well as the House of Lords. I am the highest ranking member of the Church of Soldeus, and thus hold the seats on the Ecclesiastic Court, but not on the House of Lords (At least I haven't been invited directly).
Some background: Auros was around long before the Player-who-will-not-be-named-even-though-I-doubt-very-much-that-you-all-are-gonna-get-through-this-ordeal-in-character, before me, before Darkfall, but created with Darkfall in mind.
Aventurine reciprocated the Duchy's efforts by writing Auros into the game of Darkfall (OG). This allowed for but also provided some very game-specific features to the Solar Deity of Agon.
At that time, it wasn't known that DF1 would be somewhat problematic (to this day, there are forums-full of evidence and testimony as to just how troubled that game was during the First Age of Hyperion, and as much more that has disappeared never to be seen again), it wasn't known that Hyperion's initial involvement would be relatively brief though arguably glorious, and we all thought hopefully that DF might be the game we'd still be playing five or six years further down the timeline. As it turns out, it wasn't. Arguably the same guild has stepped back into some form of DF a few times, but it 'wasn't the same river'.
When we came here, it was with a desire to remain Wessex, even in matters of religion, and yet to see the religion we'd use take root, not merely be grafted on. We were challenged to make a Navian religion out of the irreducible elements of what had been initially designed so specifically for the world of Agon. We looked at the essentials of the faith:
- a Solar Deity of goodness and light;
- a distinct preference for one god over others and a belief in "His Supremacy";
- early European-style trappings, hierarchy, liturgy, etc. with a preference for a resemblance to Roman Catholicism (yet with some features borrowed from the Church of England-- still very 'high church'); we also borrowed a thing or two from Classic Roman religion;
- an undercurrent of Gnosticism and mystery for general fun and the specific possibility of the revival of the Ordo Solis et Lunae should that ever have been desired;
- the potential and a rationale for a Church Militant, as military orders had been a part of the Church of Auros;
- and, of course, a code of conduct for the faithful that would recognisable as conducive to chivalrous behaviour.
Those things we tried to retain, adjusting very little even for the fact that MO is more like late Antiquity (?) than the Middles Ages. We took out the backstory that was enmeshed in details of Agon not reproducible in Nave, the map among them.
For purposes of use in Nave, we took out Auros's Horse, Siete Leguas, and His 12 Holy Brides; we kept silent on the subject of Morgaine and made a 'deceased' female demi-deity of the planet (Nave); we described the great enemy of Sol Deus (God of the Sun, God of Light) as Umbra (Darkness), which nearly dovetails into what little could be gleaned by-guess-and-by-God about the Tindremine Empire's pantheon-- replacing the foes of Auros in Agon.
Those foes had been gods that (according to the lore of Darkfall) might once have been mere mortals. No such process takes place here, yet we wanted to be plausibly good citizens of the Empire-- able to honour the other good gods, and not committing what to proper Tindremines would be blasphemy or sacrilege by denying their existence.
For the underground or esoteric religion (or philosophy) of the Duchy in Agon, the OSL, we offered the semblance of the Cult of Sol Invictus, drawing on Mithraism and Graeco-Roman pantheons for inspiration. (Note that this was intended to be a foil for the Church of Wessex, not an orthodox part of it but the left-hand path that "everyone whispered about". Like the OSL itself, it never really got used in MO...
...or did it? No, really. Not used, so far as I know.)
And, just as it had in Agon, the Duchy's religion went viral and spread in forms both positive and negative to other guilds and other players, and even to the game's official forums (where you get a trophy for declaring either for Soldeus or for Umbra). [AQ] owes, along with great moral debts they can never repay :p , its only semblance of a lore-religion partly to the tale of Umbra.
Anyone who's read this far is encouraged at this point to spot the fanciful untrue detail embedded in the above.
"What, if I guess what it is, do I win a bun?"
What I recall specifically about the perceived need for an Incarnation of the Radiant Lord in Nave (for which role St. Lucian / Lucius was chosen) is that (along with sacrifice on a divine level being a supernally noble and beautiful idea, with all kinds of plot complications and character to be revealed in parables) there was a kind of gap left from the lore of Agon, a world wherein all humans might have been and all Mercians were certain they were *descendants* of Auros, not just His Creations.
Emotionally, it was felt, it would be almost as rewarding to be able to get into a character who could say "my God was born among us and died for me!" as it would be to assume the persona of one who could say "I am of the blood of Auros". For those who do get into character at all, that is. Those who don't were assumed not to care.
St. Lucian (note spelling) was around in, I believe, 2010, if you are trying to determine a timeline.
Comic Relief:
Spoiler:
[OOC Note: Atheists are often the keenest students of religion. The development of religious belief in all its forms is a constant fascination to me, and something that in the case of Christianity I have studied in depth, even though I don't believe a word of it.]
As regards the relationship between secular and spiritual authority in Nave, the most pertinent point is surely that the rights enjoyed by the Church of Soldeus are those granted by the Crown. This implies that the status of the Church is essentially analogous to that of the Church of England, and essentially different to that of the Vatican that exists as a sovereign state in its own right.
The fact that the secular authorities do not routinely meddle in Church business is not relevant; the fact that they could do so is what demonstrates the nature of the relationship.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Casilda Tametomo
I dont particularly recall any reference to nave being dead
Nave was supposedly murdered by Umbra in jealous revenge for Her preferment of Soldeus. Other ancient sources tell the story differently but may be considered apocryphal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Levald Aurelius
http://technopepper.com/social/MO/sig/maurgana2.png
Interesting source of information Casilda. There will be a lot to think about here.
The answer is in this spoiler:
((Wait... is this forum supposed to be IC? In that case...))Quote:
Originally Posted by Casilda Tametomo
*Zakiyya comes up to the fire, a leg of springbok held between her teeth watching the clergy as they speak of Soldeus. She falls down, landing on her rump, careful not to let the mug of mead spill*
'wut I miss?
*She spits out a bit of tendon into the warm fire close by and takes a swig of mead*
I believe "The Usurper" would suffice, it takes up less characters and is less of a health hazard! Although I'm not sure it applies to yourself as you regard him highly in your beliefs, Casilda.Quote:
Originally Posted by Casilda Tametomo
For all those that are unaware, our respected guest Casilda follows a Sect called The Order of St. Lucian.
We in the Duchy of Wessex are part of the Order of St Jude.
Fundementally our beliefs are very similar:
- We both believe in Soldeus
- We both believe in Lucius (at least up until His Majesty the Duke's recent announcement of Lucius heresy)
- We both believe in the same Scripture (at least up until His Majesty the Duke's recent announcement of Lucius heresy)
But the key difference between the Sects comes down to something very simple:
- The head of the Order of St Jude is His Majesty the Duke.
- The head of the Order of St Lucian is Malachi "the Usurper", the former Bishop of Wessex who has now been excommunicated by the Eccumenical Council.
Right away you can see where the tension lies when the Duke makes a comment on Lucius being heresy, a single post of a few words that sparked off a tsunami of paranoia from the Order of St Lucian (or at the very least Casilda). In the worry that we would deliberately edit the Scripture of Soldeus to match His Majesty's comments, she sought to preserve the original texts, authored by the head of her Order, by transferring them from this forum to the MO forums.
This should show us that the Duke's words contain power, where a few words could spark threads and posts and post of hundreds of words.
All of this is absolutely fascinating. It is history. And this type of history provides depth, culture, and substance to our in-game religion, which is one of the reasons I fell in love with the Duchy of Wessex, and the Church of Soldeus.
Ordo Lucius*
I don't suppose that it is, but it's hard to stay i-c for the discussion and also harsh to expect me to call Zac / Malachi "the Usurper" when I'm referring to him as a player, not his character. In fact, I'm not gonna do it that way OOC. Everyone else may suit themselves.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zakiyya Ajam
+several points for RPing and with style.
(I probably should point out, though, that wherever the churchmen are meeting, it's probably got either very cushy and proper furnishings or ascetically uncomfortable ones, so mind where you sprawl, my good woman.)
A few points:I'm sure Casilda would, out of politesse, not insist on referring to the man in question as anything but "the Usurper" to her brothers in faith from the Church of Soldeus in Wessex, even though he was the head of the Order into which she was ordained. There was a usurpation, at least from one very widely-held point of view.Quote:
Originally Posted by Azidano Valkran
I'm just saying, that OOC you'll be seeing me say "Zac said", or "Malachi said".
For your potential amusement, though, I will proffer that he had one other epithet, used in the OG Darkfall days, and especially by the rather i-c atheist vassals of which I was one: "Malarkey Drake". He thought it was funny, too.Not exactly. As Levald (who, shall I out him? Was / is also a member of OL, the potential gaming organisation) says, it was the Ordo Lucius.Quote:
Originally Posted by Azidano Valkran
I don't really doubt that's possible, as Sir Kaylem took vows as a knight of the church and thus became known as a Brother of the Judican Order. However, it is also not necessarily so, unless the non-military brethren of the church are following the specific rule (if there is one) of that specific order. To simplify: If I were you, I'd ask and make sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Azidano Valkran
- A slight complication is the question of how you can describe St. Jude unless (as is traditional) as the disciple or friend of Lucius, and you can only answer it for yourselves. The Ordo Lucius would not be ret-conning this point.
- Another slight complication is that there was an Order of St. Lucian of Riada, the Merciful Harbingers, established back in 2009, granted ecclesiastical permissions by the U... know what, and warranted to bear an Achievement of Arms by His Grace Manus Dei. Twyster was a squire within the rule of that order, and I think one other person may have joined.
Though Twyster showed up, also, to join the OL, I do not think he did so merely on the strength of his esquiry in the O.St.L.R., as it was manifestly a separate thing, even if based on what was held to be the same saint/saviour on a different day. The OL has its own Rule (a kind of mission statement / code of conduct) which would have been unnecessary if the two orders were identical. They are no such thing as identical; as the only current member of the OL who is role-playing the religion in MO, I must insist that you all not attempt to conflate the two for purposes of OOC squabbling. There's no basis for an argument on this point out of character.Regarding the Key Differences: Yes, and no; maybe? Technically, in the case of the Merciful Harbingers. The O.St.L.R., as the documentary record of their Grant of Arms conveys,Quote:
Originally Posted by Azidano Valkran
was created as an order of the church militant by the presiding Bishop's spiritual authority, not that of the Duke, and not from the temporal authority of the Duke, and the head of it would have been an Abbot, unnamed in the grant. Though records would seem to be lamentably spotty as to who that was, it was probably some priest, maybe the Bishop of the time, maybe not. The Abbot of the Ordo Lucius, succeeding to Zac's original character of Malachi, would be another character entirely.Quote:
WHEREAS the loyal and virtuous Order of St. Lucian of Riada, known famously as "The Merciful Harbingers", has demonstrated both fervid faith and martial valor and been duly instituted by His Excellency, the Right Honorable Malachi Drake, Bishop of Wessex, he is desirous of having Letters Patent of Armorial Ensigns granted and appointed unto them and duly recorded in His Grace's College of Arms, and accordingly hath rightly requested by the favor of His Grace’s Warrant our granting and assigning such Arms
For orders internal to Wessex, it's possible that headship devolves back to the king when, over time, people playing in them quit games or gaming and leave guilds; it would be easy to see the duke taking back all the empty grandmaster positions; there's a rationale and precedent for that. But it would not apply to the Ordo Lucius as it was only begun outside of Wessex his realm and after the dissolution of the so-called Kingdom of Wessex.
I find Zac i-c as Malachi referring at least once to the Abbot of the abbey of St. Jude. Unknown who, specifically, he meant.Azidano, you're insulting to call it paranoia. I am not worried on behalf of the OL, regardless of its in-game activity or lack thereof in MO.Quote:
Originally Posted by Azidano Valkran
Furthermore, if as I hear you really, personally, prefer Mike's short sallies to my contributions to the discussion-- if this is TL;dr for you-- then you can continue without my looking up and linking your 'history, depth, culture, substance'. Do. It. Yourself.
Back on topic, I transferred nothing from these forums to the MO forums. This is the provenance of what I've most recently re-posted:
- Zac as Malachi, bishop's hat, posted the WIP and results of his work and his Solar's work as privately viewed documents in the cloud. He then posted them on the MoFos, at various dates possibly included in most of them, and at or around the same time, on the Wessex forums.
- SV let someone out to play with the permissions of the RP / Lore forums at mortalonline.com and the whole wretched mess was deleted by vandals.
- Rhodri commendably and assiduously recovered just about all of everything from the Google cache of that part of the forums, enlisting various others including but not limited to Otto, Zac, and me to help.
- Otto is not a paper-shuffling type; he mislabeled some of Zac's posts that he reposted, for instance giving the orthodox version the title "The Cult Of Sol Invictus", and vice versa. Not a big deal, but something he did eventually fix, I believe.
- Your guild leader dropped the Author Bomb on all things Lucius (and possibly Lucian) with his already-famous "that's a heresy", unquote.
- I reposted, with somewhat clearer titling, and more individual posts, what had already been reposted by Otto, and originally posted by Malachi. It's the lore of the OL, regardless of what Wessex (the guild, the man) thinks of it. Because I can't expect Otto to keep his posts intact if it's all or partly heresy to his (sometimes roleplayed) character, and because I can't allow it to disappear or be edited away from what is the basis of something that I and other people are roleplaying outside of Wessex, there is no alternative. I can't have people joining AI and wondering about the religion of Soldeus as practiced there, and tell them "well, the guy who posted it, his guild got rid of / changed it".
- I suggested to Otto that he might want to delete his post, as even if you brethren here come up with a slightly or entirely new take on your guild's lore, it'll be posted by the head of Wessex state, or the head of the Church of Wessex, and not Sir ("isn't there a war I should be starting, somewhere?") Osterwind.
What can I say, except that he's a hip shooter? Fortunately for me I can now only watch approvingly as you all figure out what you're going to do differently in compliance with his statement as RL author/owner of internal Wessex lore.Quote:
Originally Posted by Azidano Valkran
This is one of the reasons I fell in love with loreplay and roleplay, period, as this is not unique to this game or this guild though it has had some sterling examples here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Azidano Valkran
I am sorry you were insulted, Casilda, it was not my intention. We are all equal before Soldeus. Anything good that has emanated from me is attributed to Soldeus, anything bad is attributed to my own corrupt Inner Spark. I would say this is the same as the Usurper's work. His work was a great work of Soldeus through his hand, whilst, as we see, that His Spark was clean.Quote:
Originally Posted by Casilda TametomoA few points:I'm sure Casilda would, out of politesse, not insist on referring to the man in question as anything but "the Usurper" to her brothers in faith from the Church of Soldeus in Wessex, even though he was the head of the Order into which she was ordained. There was a usurpation, at least from one very widely-held point of view.
I'm just saying, that OOC you'll be seeing me say "Zac said", or "Malachi said".
For your potential amusement, though, I will proffer that he had one other epithet, used in the OG Darkfall days, and especially by the rather i-c atheist vassals of which I was one: "Malarkey Drake". He thought it was funny, too.Not exactly. As Levald (who, shall I out him? Was / is also a member of OL, the potential gaming organisation) says, it was the Ordo Lucius.I don't really doubt that's possible, as Sir Kaylem took vows as a knight of the church and thus became known as a Brother of the Judican Order. However, it is also not necessarily so, unless the non-military brethren of the church are following the specific rule (if there is one) of that specific order. To simplify: If I were you, I'd ask and make sure.
- A slight complication is the question of how you can describe St. Jude unless (as is traditional) as the disciple or friend of Lucius, and you can only answer it for yourselves. The Ordo Lucius would not be ret-conning this point.
- Another slight complication is that there was an Order of St. Lucian of Riada, the Merciful Harbingers, established back in 2009, granted ecclesiastical permissions by the U... know what, and warranted to bear an Achievement of Arms by His Grace Manus Dei. Twyster was a squire within the rule of that order, and I think one other person may have joined.
Though Twyster showed up, also, to join the OL, I do not think he did so merely on the strength of his esquiry in the O.St.L.R., as it was manifestly a separate thing, even if based on what was held to be the same saint/saviour on a different day. The OL has its own Rule (a kind of mission statement / code of conduct) which would have been unnecessary if the two orders were identical. They are no such thing as identical; as the only current member of the OL who is role-playing the religion in MO, I must insist that you all not attempt to conflate the two for purposes of OOC squabbling. There's no basis for an argument on this point out of character.Regarding the Key Differences: Yes, and no; maybe? Technically, in the case of the Merciful Harbingers. The O.St.L.R., as the documentary record of their Grant of Arms conveys,
was created as an order of the church militant by the presiding Bishop's spiritual authority, not that of the Duke, and not from the temporal authority of the Duke, and the head of it would have been an Abbot, unnamed in the grant. Though records would seem to be lamentably spotty as to who that was, it was probably some priest, maybe the Bishop of the time, maybe not. The Abbot of the Ordo Lucius, succeeding to Zac's original character of Malachi, would be another character entirely.
For orders internal to Wessex, it's possible that headship devolves back to the king when, over time, people playing in them quit games or gaming and leave guilds; it would be easy to see the duke taking back all the empty grandmaster positions; there's a rationale and precedent for that. But it would not apply to the Ordo Lucius as it was only begun outside of Wessex his realm and after the dissolution of the so-called Kingdom of Wessex.
I find Zac i-c as Malachi referring at least once to the Abbot of the abbey of St. Jude. Unknown who, specifically, he meant.Azidano, you're insulting to call it paranoia. I am not worried on behalf of the OL, regardless of its in-game activity or lack thereof in MO.
Furthermore, if as I hear you really, personally, prefer Mike's short sallies to my contributions to the discussion-- if this is TL;dr for you-- then you can continue without my looking up and linking your 'history, depth, culture, substance'. Do. It. Yourself.
Back on topic, I transferred nothing from these forums to the MO forums. This is the provenance of what I've most recently re-posted:
- Zac as Malachi, bishop's hat, posted the WIP and results of his work and his Solar's work as privately viewed documents in the cloud. He then posted them on the MoFos, at various dates possibly included in most of them, and at or around the same time, on the Wessex forums.
- SV let someone out to play with the permissions of the RP / Lore forums at mortalonline.com and the whole wretched mess was deleted by vandals.
- Rhodri commendably and assiduously recovered just about all of everything from the Google cache of that part of the forums, enlisting various others including but not limited to Otto, Zac, and me to help.
- Otto is not a paper-shuffling type; he mislabeled some of Zac's posts that he reposted, for instance giving the orthodox version the title "The Cult Of Sol Invictus", and vice versa. Not a big deal, but something he did eventually fix, I believe.
- Your guild leader dropped the Author Bomb on all things Lucius (and possibly Lucian) with his already-famous "that's a heresy", unquote.
- I reposted, with somewhat clearer titling, and more individual posts, what had already been reposted by Otto, and originally posted by Malachi. It's the lore of the OL, regardless of what Wessex (the guild, the man) thinks of it. Because I can't expect Otto to keep his posts intact if it's all or partly heresy to his (sometimes roleplayed) character, and because I can't allow it to disappear or be edited away from what is the basis of something that I and other people are roleplaying outside of Wessex, there is no alternative. I can't have people joining AI and wondering about the religion of Soldeus as practiced there, and tell them "well, the guy who posted it, his guild got rid of / changed it".
- I suggested to Otto that he might want to delete his post, as even if you brethren here come up with a slightly or entirely new take on your guild's lore, it'll be posted by the head of Wessex state, or the head of the Church of Wessex, and not Sir ("isn't there a war I should be starting, somewhere?") Osterwind.What can I say, except that he's a hip shooter? Fortunately for me I can now only watch approvingly as you all figure out what you're going to do differently in compliance with his statement as RL author/owner of internal Wessex lore.This is one of the reasons I fell in love with loreplay and roleplay, period, as this is not unique to this game or this guild though it has had some sterling examples here.
I agree that there is an apparent contradiction between believing in St. Jude and regarding Lucius as heresy, but the wisdom in His Majesty's words have not yet been revealed. We await His Majesty's explanation.
I'm not quite sure how I am supposed to feel about your comment regarding doing my own research. I am only a student of knowledge, if somebody with your skill and time has already down the work, I see no reason to reinvent the wheel. If you wish to, from now on, refuse to enlighten me with knowledge, and you have been a great source of information during my studies, then so be it, all is as Soldeus Wills, I can only work with the tools that are available to me.
I did not realise there was a another place where the Scripture if being safeguarded, although most, if not all, of the posts in here regarding the Scripture was authored by Malachi the Usurper.
I value your contributions to the discussion. You are a valued guest in this forum, and a repository of knowledge.
May Soldeus Guide us all upon the Path of the Righteous.
*Squints her eyes, tossing her leg of 'bok behind her.*
Wut 'bout me then? Am I a valued guest as well?
*grabs a pillow from ...somewhere and places it under her feet*
So... What does this all mean?
Zakiyya, you are not a valued guest.
You are an irreplaceable villein.
This is your home.
We are discussing religion. Are you a believer, Zakiyya?
*Takes a long drink from her mug, gulping down the warm liquid*
Not sure. Never gave much thought to it all.
So long as you're not expressing distaste with my walls of text you're welcome to lean on them. If I become too long-winded for your use, do let me know directly instead of letting me pick it up on streetcorners. I fully realise that a reasonable answer to the question of "Why don't you ask Laylah/Casilda?" has often been "because I don't want to know that much about it."Quote:
Originally Posted by Azidano Valkran
Years ago I recommended and the Curia Ducis of the time informally went along with the idea-- after the lumensolis.com forums had a period of instability and some links to that site became unlisted or hard to follow, and after some other data losses-- that we redundantly archive material we were working on, on more than one server, and that one of those be Google docs. That would naturally tend to include stuff (lore, religion, etc.) written with our move to Mortal Online from Darkfall in mind.
Middle thing last, I don't see any dramatic problem with you all rewriting your lore to suit yourselves; the only significant potential problem I can see is down the path of nothing-doing:You have to rewrite it, not let it hang.Quote:
Originally Posted by Varrick ChaosWielder
I flatly do not like this vision, quoted above, this story of a church that tolerates heresy for years because of fear (and, from the perspective of practical roleplay, it's a very fantastic sort of fear-- too removed from the reality that if Lucian/Lucius hadn't been wanted in the history of the church at the time, he would not have been written into it to begin with, and could have been written out in the summer of 2012).
It's not a worthy backstory to switch to-- "I was in that church, and I wouldn't have let it slide"-- even though some sort of switch must be made.
It's also just bad loreplay/roleplay and guild management practice to tell new members, in effect, "Here's our religious lore, if you're interested, but it's wrong, don't get attached to it, we'll change it, but we don't know when or if we'll be arsed." Understandably, these things take time, but there should at least be an agenda-- and I realise I'm not currently addressing anyone who change the agenda with this concern, so don't take it personally, Azidano and Varrick. Varrick especially has no more important role than caretaker of his own health right now.
Rather trivially, anyone who portrays a belief in what you no longer "believe" is also left unsure of exactly how-why-on-what-basis to remonstrate with you, until you play up to this directive from your duke-- though I'm sure I for one can wing it.
It strikes me that these changes are rather late in coming, off-the cuff, when they functionally should date back to July of 2012. I understand the perceived or rather deeply felt need to punish the absent Zac and even why it would be nicer for Wessex to not have quite so much of what scripture there is in use in Mortal Online be signed by Malachi. Excommunication is the way to go. But while you're ret-conning "the Lucius" out of the Faith, why are you not (for instance) backdating the excommunication? It's not like Zac has been here at all to respond to any of it, so it might as well "have taken place" when the actual dissolution of the Kingdom of Wessex plus final split of players did. As, in practical terms, it did.
Lastly, if I haven't made it clear, the duke used to sound something like this: "You are herald queen of arms, Madame. It's your department, and you don't need to seek permission first." Why isn't he saying the same in effect to the Parson of Nave, or his designated writer, with regard to making a new scripture and revised history of the Church of Wessex -or- at least, why do you think that isn't a mandate from your sovereign that you actually have? The Church, after all, is more independent from the Crown than is the College of Arms. It's not a wholly rhetorical question, but I realise it may be sensitive, so no demand of an answer is implied.
I will speak with His Majesty on this subject, and we shall see what ensues. I believe a re-write of the lore is a possibility, albeit not the only one.
I think a lot of the current older members (that are at least semi-active, anyways) are members, or were members, of the Ordo Lucius.
That being said, Casilda is whipping ass.
Does His Majesty, the Duke of Wessex, Overarch of the Guild, have any comments to make?
I noticed that Your Grace has Graced us with his presence on the forums the other day.
We have been patiently waiting for a while, my lord.
I understand if you are busy with Real Life, in whuch case, my humble advice is to delegate the responsibility of an official, Ducal, response.
I have been in contact with His Majesty. We will have an answer shortly (coming day's). Patience is needed on the subject as there is a lot of issues to review and discuss that we are working on.
Thanks for the update, Reverend Father.
Many things have been discussed. We will speak of them more on TS early this week. Expect many post's in the near future on the different subjects.
Good to see progress regarding this issue!
I was, in fact, quite unaware of the development in this thread, and of what has ensued here.
I am actually quite impressed on all counts, and toward both sides - particularly toward the analysis of Azidano and of Casilda. Casilda, your depth of insight and recollection on these matters is astonishing. I consider it a shame that these considerable intellectual powers were not paired in the past with a stronger sense of conscience, for you are a talent.
There is much I can say OOC to clarify why I made the remark that I did - even offhandedly. (In point of fact it was an OOC remark.) However, I think I should limit how much I speak out of character because it may ruin all of the fun. To have things spoken openly leads people to choose cookie cutter roles, and I would rather the ambiguity of what I have said be interpreted within the hypothetical world wherein the Church of Sol Deus exists.
Suffice it to say, from an in-character perspective, there ought to be ample evidence anyway to suggest that Manus, although Supreme Governor of the Church of Sol-Deus, isn't perhaps all that devout. But then, what monarch is?
But here's a little OOC clarification anyway.
I said the doctrine of Lucius is a heresy because it is from my perspective. In terms of the lifetime existence of the Church of Sol Invictus (and this clan), Malachi the Usurper's writings about a mortal named Lucius who was "touched by the Sun" are still relatively recent (2009). I don't like the idea of a "Jesus figure", probably because I don't like the idea of Jesus! (Though not quite an atheist, I have much in common with our other lore writers.) However, I did allow Father Malachi to draft and develop a more Christian-like concept for Mortal Online, because I wanted an institutionalized, Catholic-esque Church. I always wanted intra-clan intrigue between a formalized religion and an older, pagan-sourced one.
Here's some fun from memory lane. 14 years ago, the year 2000 shows our very first "Carta Solis" and the founding of this clan for Asheron's Call: http://web.archive.org/web/200010182...sv.acsage.com/ I post this, because, ironically, the clan Lumen Solis Victrix (Hyperion), from which Wessex is a spinoff, began in 1999 not as a "nation" or "feudal kingdom", but thematically as a religious order.
If you read the wording of this proto-Carta Solis, you can see it referred to as such. In fact, the main wording of the Carta is about religious ideas about the Sun and not much about government. The plot thickens, eh?
By 2002 the familiar feudal government and kingdom concept was in place. Here Lumen Solis Victrix took on its first mass recruit-y empire-building form. There were 400 members at launch for Shadowbane - largest on the server. You can see here the Mithraic elements that inform the design. https://web.archive.org/web/20020929...umensolis.com/ Thankfully the flash movie still works. Unfortunately, the links from the flash menu don't. (interesting to hear my 22-year old tenor on the menu.)
And here's the 2007 Wessex-only site. http://web.archive.org/web/200706072...yofwessex.org/ This is the last website I made myself; our current one was made by Covo. Cut me some slack on the resolution - remember we had smaller monitors in 2006, and 1024x768 was the standard.
At any rate, to this day, there are still hidden elements of the old order still operating in the background within Wessex, as there were in 2006, as there were in 2009. It is perhaps not unreasonable to suppose that the in-character duke might retain some of these sympathies. It is also completely reasonable to expect that he would not speak candidly about them to the point of wanting to formally redraft Church doctrine. When going to a new game, however, we speak from backstage, and the house lights are up. For ESO, I'd simply prefer not to bring the "Lucius" element of our past. In a world with lore as well developed as in that of the Elder Scrolls, our Catholic-esque flavored variant of our old Sol religion doesn't really fit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Casilda Tametomo
I did not know that you once sought to know, that you might serve, Casilda. We kept our cloaks drawn too much, it seems.
I am delighted by your response, Your Grace, I have been waiting a long time for this response, and it was worth the wait.
I am also impressed, yet again, by the amount of depth and substance there is, yet again, I keep learning new things as this issue progresses.
I can understand the position of the Duke who would want to disassociate himself with the man who, essentially, tried to take his Duchy from him.
It is a shame (or a Blessing?) that a few words could cause hundreds of words to be spilled in anguish and confusion. Either way, it is certainly interesting to see the development.
To draw on real life, during Henry VIII's reign in England, he became frustrated with having to be subservient to the Universal Church and so he made his own Church, this was accepted because, in essence, he was promoting reformation, "going back to the original teachings of Jesus". Perhaps it could be considered that we'd want to make a similar reformation?
The clarification of the absence of Soldeus/Lucius lore in the expedition into Tamriel is paramount, as it provides me the confidence to continue my work on behalf of the Church in Nave, so I thank you for that distinction.
And my final question/comment, would be that you've described the Duke as not very pious, which is completely realistic with expectation, but as for being heretical? Could this be sustained? Perhaps. Could it be sustained in public? I think its possibility is limited.
Could we be seeing the King making the full separation between Church and State, and the King, like currently in England, being more of the ceremonial Head of the Church (I am sure the Queen of England is not more pious than the Archbishop of Canterbury), but the functional Head of the Church would be a Bishop? (I don't think we have a Bishop any more, and would like to take this opportunity to express my feelings that a Bishop of Wessex would help the Church alot, in the same way we have a Chamberlain of Wessex, a Sheriff of Wessex, and a Herald of Wessex, perhaps its time to mature the Church alongside the other administrative branches? It would be an honour and nod to the humble beginnings of the Duchy of Wessex, which found its roots in the Light of Religion)
All in all, what I take from this is that the doctrine will be independently decided by the Church so its activities in Nave can be continued, and the Soldeus/Lucius interpretation is for Nave, specifically (very much liek the way C.S Lewis described how Aslan IS Jesus in another dimension, so people in Narnia and people of Earth worship the same God, but its completely different religion and 'lore' as it were). What we probably need clarification on is the role of the Duke in the Church, whether he is functionally the head of the Church, or ceremoniously the head of it (even if it would ceremonious, the Church would still sing the Duke's praises).
There's hardly an answer that this statement deserves from me, but let it be clear that I am for the most part not roleplaying my peripheral and superfluous involvement in this thread, and neither should you feel called upon to do so. No stress.Quote:
Originally Posted by Manus Dei
I understood that it must be one, but since it's not as if there is a place His Grace and Mother Casilda, O.L., ever frequent together in character -and- there is a certain story progression within Aegis Imperium and within the game to maintain, I took the practical path. "Confirmed hearsay" is how I would put it in exposition, and that leaves plenty of room for detail to be added later at discretion. It looks like meta-gaming now, but we can hope it won't by the time Wessex is through with its internal discussion and if it then wishes to play this plot twist into the game somehow. In any other case, and in other places, it is recent history not given in great detail. In detail, there's a very small congregation of Soldeus's faithful among the Aegis Imperium, and there's the Mosh to deal with. Having been considered heretics themselves will actually help that church deal with their fellows of other faiths.Quote:
Originally Posted by Manus Dei
The knowledge that this, the Lucian doctrine(s) and influence, (even before you decide what-all "this" includes) is heresy within Wessex is not any kind of bone of real contention in any sense. In character I will continue to have Casilda, family, and flock believe it and preach it, and there will be fun for all.
As a writer, the Church of Wessex is your story, and you may tell, edit, amend, delete, or ret-con it any way you wish, even without explanation. As long as poor Azidano is not kept waiting beyond his endurance, and your newbies aren't left dangling, you should do what you want with it.Permit me to say without explanation that I believe we, some of us, did not keep our cloaks drawn enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by Manus Dei
I am very glad to see progress on this discussion of yours and hope to have been some small help.
*Blinks at the man who joined the others. She says nothing and watches him carefully as she holds her mug close to her chest. Her eyes follows the man as he leaves the room, saying his piece. Zakiyya remains fixated on the spot where she last saw the figure. She doesn't speak for a while, letting the cold silence of the room sink in. After some time, she starts looking around, with almost a child-like wonderment at the room and its occupants. She then takes a long drink of her mead, making a heavy gulping sound then turns to the others.*
....So... who was that? *She gives a worried smile*
The man with the crown? That was His Majesty, Duke Manus Dei.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zakiyya Ajam
Guys, I love you, but I just excommunicated all of you.
The Excommunication of the Heretics That Were in Wessex.
Don't worry, it's a "kinder, gentler" excommunication.
And until we take this RP religion party elsewhere, this could kind of wrap it up nicely.
That power isn't granted to a Priest. Even I couldn't of done it myself, thus never claimed credit to doing it solo. Takes the Ecumenical Council to do it.
It may take the Ecumenical Council within the Church of Wessex. I am, shall we say, without the Church of Wessex (whose head and whose ranking clergymen have been revealed to me by the Radiant Lord as being in sin and error due to the rejection of the love of God in the Sacrifice of Lucius) as I am without the *ahem* realm of Wessex. (Grand Serjeantry, I presume?)Quote:
Originally Posted by Varrick ChaosWielder
It is really a very simple thing, and for your own good.
Until this is resolved, by the mercy of Soldeus, you who deny Lucius will not be given communion or the other sacraments by me, by my deacon, or by any other clergy of the Ordo Lucius, or by any other orthodox clergy of the Church of Soldeus under the Aegis Imperium and elsewhere. You should not, for the sake of your Sparks, take communion among yourselves, though you are still under any and all obligations to worship and attend the services of the Radiant Lord.
You will not preach your heresy in the gathering of my flock.
You will not further address this issue here with me in the privacy of your own chambers, or if so addressing you will not receive a response here. I and my flock will not, in any sense, attend. Due to the indwelling heresy yet to be rooted out of your diocese and nation, this is not the place, nor the time.
Other effects of the excommunication that has been imposed are:
This decree is a "medicinal penalty" intended to invite you to change your behavior or attitude, repent, and return to full communion. It is not an "expiatory penalty" designed to make satisfaction for the wrong done, much less a "vindictive penalty" designed solely to punish.
- an obligation on others to prevent you excommunicated persons from acting in a ministerial capacity in the liturgy or, if this proves impossible, to suspend the liturgical service;
- invalidity of acts of ecclesiastical governance by you, the excommunicated persons.
- This last means that as much as I once might have relied upon your counsel and guidance, I can do so no longer until you return to the pure faith-- though I am by no means relieved of my duty as priestess and desire of fellowship to admonish and counsel you.
This decree does not dim or damn your soul's Spark of the Father's Heavenly Radiance, though your own conduct and sad beliefs may effect exactly that, over time.
The decree of excommunication and the (may Soldeus grant it!) attending absolution from excommunication in history has been usually or normally reserved to a bishop, but another ordinary (or even a Pope where one is seated-- alas for the small numbers of the faithful, the Seat of Lucius is, in all of Nave, currently empty and likely to remain so for some time) can also impose and relent these decrees; thus, it is as ordinary of the Church of Soldeus (outside Wessex, which is currently benighted), a personal prelature which has elected me, and not as leader pro tem of the Ordo Lucius that I was led to decree as I have.
May Soldeus have mercy on you and rekindle the Sparks within you.
*makes the motion of washing each hand with the other, and leaves*
Casilda Tametomo: The one who discovered the Corporeal and Spiritual Works of Mercy, excellent journalist, quoter of sources.
Manus Dei: The one who declares Lucius (the central, most prominent figure of the entire religion) as heretical, yet has the audacity to declare himself "Supreme Head of the Church of' Soldeus'". (It would be more accurate to call it the Church of 'Wessex' instead.
The Truth is clear from Falsehood for those who believe.
Are you ACTIVELY trying to get yourself in more trouble? Do not mix ooc and ic and expect anything good to happen from it.
Is this meant to be in reference to Casilda's post about her MO thread? I don't think I see any ooc elements in her previous post in this thread, or my previous one in this thread, for that matter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Varrick ChaosWielder
((I do try to indicate when I am either
The topic of this thread and its delivery pretty much demanded being out of character until the last, which was in-character, and in a silly but useful convention, the ((<text>)) here would indicate what is not-in-character.
- in-character, when the norm would be to "to be out-of-character", or
- out-of-character, when the norm would be "to be in character".
... omg ...Quote:
Originally Posted by Azidano Valkran
http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb2..._Oz%2C_013.png
/facepalm
On the internet, no-one is supposed to know you're a dog.))
I riposte with quill and parchment.Quote:
Originally Posted by Casilda Tametomo
To Revered Mother Casilda Tametomo,
Reverend Mother, to excommunicate any of the devout, Wessexian or otherwise, without due consideration of their personal connection with Our Father and their countless demonstrations of True Faith, is in itself a work of The Deceiver.
Do you seek to split His Radiance's flock based on the hearsay of the mob? Unless His Grace has held an audience dismissing the canon of Lucius to which no one I seem to know had been sent due invitation, I cannot, in good faith, trust the words that make the claim.
What I can trust is evidence of deeds done in the name of the preservation of His Radiance's loved.
His Grace's own soldiers mounted valiant defenses in the name of Our Lord countless times in the rocky abyss of the North. Though now the former Archbishop of Nave is considered a usurper, I need remind you that some still among those you seek to turn away from the light with a deceptive claim of righteous authority had served with the late Sir Balthasar Drake on the field of battle during the Crusades. If you would seek to trample me under foot in the name of calming a scared herd of reactionary livestock, then I have no choice but to seek out one Malachi Drake, wherever he may be, to set right what was right to begin with.
Do you still stand to damn the dead whom sacrificed life, wealth, and hearth to defend The Holy Church? In doing so you damn those still living to a colder grave than theirs. You cannot truly believe this to be the right course, can you? Assuredly, I take no greater offence. Still, I do not think any less of you or your work and how you have toiled under the rays of His glory. That you would so soon forget those whom once toiled to hold back the pressing darkness of deceit and hatred which sought to shake the very foundations of His Church is alarming.
Do excuse my simple language, Reverend Mother. It has been quite a few months since I've put quill to parchment. I trust that this reaches you in time.
Yours,
Sir Otto Osterwind