The Heresy of Lucius?

[Azidano Valkran]

Thanks for the update, Reverend Father.

[Varrick ChaosWielder]

Many things have been discussed. We will speak of them more on TS early this week. Expect many post's in the near future on the different subjects.

[Azidano Valkran]

Good to see progress regarding this issue!

[Manus Dei]

I was, in fact, quite unaware of the development in this thread, and of what has ensued here.


I am actually quite impressed on all counts, and toward both sides - particularly toward the analysis of Azidano and of Casilda. Casilda, your depth of insight and recollection on these matters is astonishing. I consider it a shame that these considerable intellectual powers were not paired in the past with a stronger sense of conscience, for you are a talent.


There is much I can say OOC to clarify why I made the remark that I did - even offhandedly. (In point of fact it was an OOC remark.) However, I think I should limit how much I speak out of character because it may ruin all of the fun. To have things spoken openly leads people to choose cookie cutter roles, and I would rather the ambiguity of what I have said be interpreted within the hypothetical world wherein the Church of Sol Deus exists.


Suffice it to say, from an in-character perspective, there ought to be ample evidence anyway to suggest that Manus, although Supreme Governor of the Church of Sol-Deus, isn't perhaps all that devout. But then, what monarch is?


But here's a little OOC clarification anyway.


I said the doctrine of Lucius is a heresy because it is from my perspective. In terms of the lifetime existence of the Church of Sol Invictus (and this clan), Malachi the Usurper's writings about a mortal named Lucius who was "touched by the Sun" are still relatively recent (2009). I don't like the idea of a "Jesus figure", probably because I don't like the idea of Jesus! (Though not quite an atheist, I have much in common with our other lore writers.) However, I did allow Father Malachi to draft and develop a more Christian-like concept for Mortal Online, because I wanted an institutionalized, Catholic-esque Church. I always wanted intra-clan intrigue between a formalized religion and an older, pagan-sourced one.


Here's some fun from memory lane. 14 years ago, the year 2000 shows our very first "Carta Solis" and the founding of this clan for Asheron's Call: http://web.archive.org/web/200010182...sv.acsage.com/ I post this, because, ironically, the clan Lumen Solis Victrix (Hyperion), from which Wessex is a spinoff, began in 1999 not as a "nation" or "feudal kingdom", but thematically as a religious order.


If you read the wording of this proto-Carta Solis, you can see it referred to as such. In fact, the main wording of the Carta is about religious ideas about the Sun and not much about government. The plot thickens, eh?


By 2002 the familiar feudal government and kingdom concept was in place. Here Lumen Solis Victrix took on its first mass recruit-y empire-building form. There were 400 members at launch for Shadowbane - largest on the server. You can see here the Mithraic elements that inform the design. https://web.archive.org/web/20020929...umensolis.com/ Thankfully the flash movie still works. Unfortunately, the links from the flash menu don't. (interesting to hear my 22-year old tenor on the menu.)


And here's the 2007 Wessex-only site. http://web.archive.org/web/200706072...yofwessex.org/ This is the last website I made myself; our current one was made by Covo. Cut me some slack on the resolution - remember we had smaller monitors in 2006, and 1024x768 was the standard.


At any rate, to this day, there are still hidden elements of the old order still operating in the background within Wessex, as there were in 2006, as there were in 2009. It is perhaps not unreasonable to suppose that the in-character duke might retain some of these sympathies. It is also completely reasonable to expect that he would not speak candidly about them to the point of wanting to formally redraft Church doctrine. When going to a new game, however, we speak from backstage, and the house lights are up. For ESO, I'd simply prefer not to bring the "Lucius" element of our past. In a world with lore as well developed as in that of the Elder Scrolls, our Catholic-esque flavored variant of our old Sol religion doesn't really fit.

En Giro Torte Sol Ciclos et Rotor Igne! Rise! -Manus Dei

I did not know that you once sought to know, that you might serve, Casilda. We kept our cloaks drawn too much, it seems.

[Azidano Valkran]

I am delighted by your response, Your Grace, I have been waiting a long time for this response, and it was worth the wait.

I am also impressed, yet again, by the amount of depth and substance there is, yet again, I keep learning new things as this issue progresses.

I can understand the position of the Duke who would want to disassociate himself with the man who, essentially, tried to take his Duchy from him.

It is a shame (or a Blessing?) that a few words could cause hundreds of words to be spilled in anguish and confusion. Either way, it is certainly interesting to see the development.

To draw on real life, during Henry VIII's reign in England, he became frustrated with having to be subservient to the Universal Church and so he made his own Church, this was accepted because, in essence, he was promoting reformation, "going back to the original teachings of Jesus". Perhaps it could be considered that we'd want to make a similar reformation?

The clarification of the absence of Soldeus/Lucius lore in the expedition into Tamriel is paramount, as it provides me the confidence to continue my work on behalf of the Church in Nave, so I thank you for that distinction.

And my final question/comment, would be that you've described the Duke as not very pious, which is completely realistic with expectation, but as for being heretical? Could this be sustained? Perhaps. Could it be sustained in public? I think its possibility is limited.

Could we be seeing the King making the full separation between Church and State, and the King, like currently in England, being more of the ceremonial Head of the Church (I am sure the Queen of England is not more pious than the Archbishop of Canterbury), but the functional Head of the Church would be a Bishop? (I don't think we have a Bishop any more, and would like to take this opportunity to express my feelings that a Bishop of Wessex would help the Church alot, in the same way we have a Chamberlain of Wessex, a Sheriff of Wessex, and a Herald of Wessex, perhaps its time to mature the Church alongside the other administrative branches? It would be an honour and nod to the humble beginnings of the Duchy of Wessex, which found its roots in the Light of Religion)

All in all, what I take from this is that the doctrine will be independently decided by the Church so its activities in Nave can be continued, and the Soldeus/Lucius interpretation is for Nave, specifically (very much liek the way C.S Lewis described how Aslan IS Jesus in another dimension, so people in Narnia and people of Earth worship the same God, but its completely different religion and 'lore' as it were). What we probably need clarification on is the role of the Duke in the Church, whether he is functionally the head of the Church, or ceremoniously the head of it (even if it would ceremonious, the Church would still sing the Duke's praises).

[Casilda Tametomo]

I was, in fact, quite unaware of the development in this thread, and of what has ensued here.

I am actually quite impressed on all counts, and toward both sides - particularly toward the analysis of Azidano and of Casilda. Casilda, your depth of insight and recollection on these matters is astonishing. I consider it a shame that these considerable intellectual powers were not paired in the past with a stronger sense of conscience, for you are a talent.

There's hardly an answer that this statement deserves from me, but let it be clear that I am for the most part not roleplaying my peripheral and superfluous involvement in this thread, and neither should you feel called upon to do so. No stress.

There is much I can say OOC to clarify why I made the remark that I did - even offhandedly. (In point of fact it was an OOC remark.)

I understood that it must be one, but since it's not as if there is a place His Grace and Mother Casilda, O.L., ever frequent together in character -and- there is a certain story progression within Aegis Imperium and within the game to maintain, I took the practical path. "Confirmed hearsay" is how I would put it in exposition, and that leaves plenty of room for detail to be added later at discretion. It looks like meta-gaming now, but we can hope it won't by the time Wessex is through with its internal discussion and if it then wishes to play this plot twist into the game somehow. In any other case, and in other places, it is recent history not given in great detail. In detail, there's a very small congregation of Soldeus's faithful among the Aegis Imperium, and there's the Mosh to deal with. Having been considered heretics themselves will actually help that church deal with their fellows of other faiths.

The knowledge that this, the Lucian doctrine(s) and influence, (even before you decide what-all "this" includes) is heresy within Wessex is not any kind of bone of real contention in any sense. In character I will continue to have Casilda, family, and flock believe it and preach it, and there will be fun for all.

As a writer, the Church of Wessex is your story, and you may tell, edit, amend, delete, or ret-con it any way you wish, even without explanation. As long as poor Azidano is not kept waiting beyond his endurance, and your newbies aren't left dangling, you should do what you want with it.

I did not know that you once sought to know, that you might serve, Casilda. We kept our cloaks drawn too much, it seems.

Permit me to say without explanation that I believe we, some of us, did not keep our cloaks drawn enough.

I am very glad to see progress on this discussion of yours and hope to have been some small help.

[Zakiyya Ajam]

*Blinks at the man who joined the others. She says nothing and watches him carefully as she holds her mug close to her chest. Her eyes follows the man as he leaves the room, saying his piece. Zakiyya remains fixated on the spot where she last saw the figure. She doesn't speak for a while, letting the cold silence of the room sink in. After some time, she starts looking around, with almost a child-like wonderment at the room and its occupants. She then takes a long drink of her mead, making a heavy gulping sound then turns to the others.*

....So... who was that? *She gives a worried smile*

[Varrick ChaosWielder]

*Blinks at the man who joined the others. She says nothing and watches him carefully as she holds her mug close to her chest. Her eyes follows the man as he leaves the room, saying his piece. Zakiyya remains fixated on the spot where she last saw the figure. She doesn't speak for a while, letting the cold silence of the room sink in. After some time, she starts looking around, with almost a child-like wonderment at the room and its occupants. She then takes a long drink of her mead, making a heavy gulping sound then turns to the others.*

....So... who was that? *She gives a worried smile*

The man with the crown? That was His Majesty, Duke Manus Dei.

[Casilda Tametomo]

Guys, I love you, but I just excommunicated all of you.

The Excommunication of the Heretics That Were in Wessex.

Don't worry, it's a "kinder, gentler" excommunication.

And until we take this RP religion party elsewhere, this could kind of wrap it up nicely.

[Varrick ChaosWielder]

That power isn't granted to a Priest. Even I couldn't of done it myself, thus never claimed credit to doing it solo. Takes the Ecumenical Council to do it.