The Heresy of Lucius?

[Casilda Tametomo]

A few points:

I believe "The Usurper" would suffice, it takes up less characters and is less of a health hazard! Although I'm not sure it applies to yourself as you regard him highly in your beliefs, Casilda.

I'm sure Casilda would, out of politesse, not insist on referring to the man in question as anything but "the Usurper" to her brothers in faith from the Church of Soldeus in Wessex, even though he was the head of the Order into which she was ordained. There was a usurpation, at least from one very widely-held point of view.

I'm just saying, that OOC you'll be seeing me say "Zac said", or "Malachi said".

For your potential amusement, though, I will proffer that he had one other epithet, used in the OG Darkfall days, and especially by the rather i-c atheist vassals of which I was one: "Malarkey Drake". He thought it was funny, too.

For all those that are unaware, our respected guest Casilda follows a Sect called The Order of St. Lucian.

Not exactly. As Levald (who, shall I out him? Was / is also a member of OL, the potential gaming organisation) says, it was the Ordo Lucius.

We in the Duchy of Wessex are part of the Order of St Jude.

I don't really doubt that's possible, as Sir Kaylem took vows as a knight of the church and thus became known as a Brother of the Judican Order. However, it is also not necessarily so, unless the non-military brethren of the church are following the specific rule (if there is one) of that specific order. To simplify: If I were you, I'd ask and make sure.

• A slight complication is the question of how you can describe St. Jude unless (as is traditional) as the disciple or friend of Lucius, and you can only answer it for yourselves. The Ordo Lucius would not be ret-conning this point.
• Another slight complication is that there was an Order of St. Lucian of Riada, the Merciful Harbingers, established back in 2009, granted ecclesiastical permissions by the U... know what, and warranted to bear an Achievement of Arms by His Grace Manus Dei. Twyster was a squire within the rule of that order, and I think one other person may have joined.

Though Twyster showed up, also, to join the OL, I do not think he did so merely on the strength of his esquiry in the O.St.L.R., as it was manifestly a separate thing, even if based on what was held to be the same saint/saviour on a different day. The OL has its own Rule (a kind of mission statement / code of conduct) which would have been unnecessary if the two orders were identical. They are no such thing as identical; as the only current member of the OL who is role-playing the religion in MO, I must insist that you all not attempt to conflate the two for purposes of OOC squabbling. There's no basis for an argument on this point out of character.

Fundementally our beliefs are very similar:

- We both believe in Soldeus
- We both believe in Lucius (at least up until His Majesty the Duke's recent announcement of Lucius heresy)
- We both believe in the same Scripture (at least up until His Majesty the Duke's recent announcement of Lucius heresy)

But the key difference between the Sects comes down to something very simple:

- The head of the Order of St Jude is His Majesty the Duke.
- The head of the Order of St Lucian is Malachi "the Usurper", the former Bishop of Wessex who has now been excommunicated by the Eccumenical Council.

Regarding the Key Differences: Yes, and no; maybe? Technically, in the case of the Merciful Harbingers. The O.St.L.R., as the documentary record of their Grant of Arms conveys,

WHEREAS the loyal and virtuous Order of St. Lucian of Riada, known famously as "The Merciful Harbingers", has demonstrated both fervid faith and martial valor and been duly instituted by His Excellency, the Right Honorable Malachi Drake, Bishop of Wessex, he is desirous of having Letters Patent of Armorial Ensigns granted and appointed unto them and duly recorded in His Grace's College of Arms, and accordingly hath rightly requested by the favor of His Grace’s Warrant our granting and assigning such Arms

was created as an order of the church militant by the presiding Bishop's spiritual authority, not that of the Duke, and not from the temporal authority of the Duke, and the head of it would have been an Abbot, unnamed in the grant. Though records would seem to be lamentably spotty as to who that was, it was probably some priest, maybe the Bishop of the time, maybe not. The Abbot of the Ordo Lucius, succeeding to Zac's original character of Malachi, would be another character entirely.

For orders internal to Wessex, it's possible that headship devolves back to the king when, over time, people playing in them quit games or gaming and leave guilds; it would be easy to see the duke taking back all the empty grandmaster positions; there's a rationale and precedent for that. But it would not apply to the Ordo Lucius as it was only begun outside of Wessex his realm and after the dissolution of the so-called Kingdom of Wessex.

I find Zac i-c as Malachi referring at least once to the Abbot of the abbey of St. Jude. Unknown who, specifically, he meant.

Right away you can see where the tension lies when the Duke makes a comment on Lucius being heresy, a single post of a few words that sparked off a tsunami of paranoia from the Order of St Lucian (or at the very least Casilda). In the worry that we would deliberately edit the Scripture of Soldeus to match His Majesty's comments, she sought to preserve the original texts, authored by the head of her Order, by transferring them from this forum to the MO forums.

Azidano, you're insulting to call it paranoia. I am not worried on behalf of the OL, regardless of its in-game activity or lack thereof in MO.

Furthermore, if as I hear you really, personally, prefer Mike's short sallies to my contributions to the discussion-- if this is TL;dr for you-- then you can continue without my looking up and linking your 'history, depth, culture, substance'. Do. It. Yourself.

Back on topic, I transferred nothing from these forums to the MO forums. This is the provenance of what I've most recently re-posted:

1. Zac as Malachi, bishop's hat, posted the WIP and results of his work and his Solar's work as privately viewed documents in the cloud. He then posted them on the MoFos, at various dates possibly included in most of them, and at or around the same time, on the Wessex forums.
2. SV let someone out to play with the permissions of the RP / Lore forums at mortalonline.com and the whole wretched mess was deleted by vandals.
3. Rhodri commendably and assiduously recovered just about all of everything from the Google cache of that part of the forums, enlisting various others including but not limited to Otto, Zac, and me to help.
4. Otto is not a paper-shuffling type; he mislabeled some of Zac's posts that he reposted, for instance giving the orthodox version the title "The Cult Of Sol Invictus", and vice versa. Not a big deal, but something he did eventually fix, I believe.
5. Your guild leader dropped the Author Bomb on all things Lucius (and possibly Lucian) with his already-famous "that's a heresy", unquote.
6. I reposted, with somewhat clearer titling, and more individual posts, what had already been reposted by Otto, and originally posted by Malachi. It's the lore of the OL, regardless of what Wessex (the guild, the man) thinks of it. Because I can't expect Otto to keep his posts intact if it's all or partly heresy to his (sometimes roleplayed) character, and because I can't allow it to disappear or be edited away from what is the basis of something that I and other people are roleplaying outside of Wessex, there is no alternative. I can't have people joining AI and wondering about the religion of Soldeus as practiced there, and tell them "well, the guy who posted it, his guild got rid of / changed it".
7. I suggested to Otto that he might want to delete his post, as even if you brethren here come up with a slightly or entirely new take on your guild's lore, it'll be posted by the head of Wessex state, or the head of the Church of Wessex, and not Sir ("isn't there a war I should be starting, somewhere?") Osterwind.

   This should show us that the Duke's words contain power, where a few words could spark threads and posts and post of hundreds of words.

   What can I say, except that he's a hip shooter? Fortunately for me I can now only watch approvingly as you all figure out what you're going to do differently in compliance with his statement as RL author/owner of internal Wessex lore.

   All of this is absolutely fascinating. It is history. And this type of history provides depth, culture, and substance to our in-game religion, which is one of the reasons I fell in love with the Duchy of Wessex, and the Church of Soldeus.

   This is one of the reasons I fell in love with loreplay and roleplay, period, as this is not unique to this game or this guild though it has had some sterling examples here.

[Azidano Valkran]

A few points:I'm sure Casilda would, out of politesse, not insist on referring to the man in question as anything but "the Usurper" to her brothers in faith from the Church of Soldeus in Wessex, even though he was the head of the Order into which she was ordained. There was a usurpation, at least from one very widely-held point of view.

I'm just saying, that OOC you'll be seeing me say "Zac said", or "Malachi said".

For your potential amusement, though, I will proffer that he had one other epithet, used in the OG Darkfall days, and especially by the rather i-c atheist vassals of which I was one: "Malarkey Drake". He thought it was funny, too.Not exactly. As Levald (who, shall I out him? Was / is also a member of OL, the potential gaming organisation) says, it was the Ordo Lucius.I don't really doubt that's possible, as Sir Kaylem took vows as a knight of the church and thus became known as a Brother of the Judican Order. However, it is also not necessarily so, unless the non-military brethren of the church are following the specific rule (if there is one) of that specific order. To simplify: If I were you, I'd ask and make sure.

• A slight complication is the question of how you can describe St. Jude unless (as is traditional) as the disciple or friend of Lucius, and you can only answer it for yourselves. The Ordo Lucius would not be ret-conning this point.
• Another slight complication is that there was an Order of St. Lucian of Riada, the Merciful Harbingers, established back in 2009, granted ecclesiastical permissions by the U... know what, and warranted to bear an Achievement of Arms by His Grace Manus Dei. Twyster was a squire within the rule of that order, and I think one other person may have joined.

Though Twyster showed up, also, to join the OL, I do not think he did so merely on the strength of his esquiry in the O.St.L.R., as it was manifestly a separate thing, even if based on what was held to be the same saint/saviour on a different day. The OL has its own Rule (a kind of mission statement / code of conduct) which would have been unnecessary if the two orders were identical. They are no such thing as identical; as the only current member of the OL who is role-playing the religion in MO, I must insist that you all not attempt to conflate the two for purposes of OOC squabbling. There's no basis for an argument on this point out of character.Regarding the Key Differences: Yes, and no; maybe? Technically, in the case of the Merciful Harbingers. The O.St.L.R., as the documentary record of their Grant of Arms conveys,
was created as an order of the church militant by the presiding Bishop's spiritual authority, not that of the Duke, and not from the temporal authority of the Duke, and the head of it would have been an Abbot, unnamed in the grant. Though records would seem to be lamentably spotty as to who that was, it was probably some priest, maybe the Bishop of the time, maybe not. The Abbot of the Ordo Lucius, succeeding to Zac's original character of Malachi, would be another character entirely.

For orders internal to Wessex, it's possible that headship devolves back to the king when, over time, people playing in them quit games or gaming and leave guilds; it would be easy to see the duke taking back all the empty grandmaster positions; there's a rationale and precedent for that. But it would not apply to the Ordo Lucius as it was only begun outside of Wessex his realm and after the dissolution of the so-called Kingdom of Wessex.

I find Zac i-c as Malachi referring at least once to the Abbot of the abbey of St. Jude. Unknown who, specifically, he meant.Azidano, you're insulting to call it paranoia. I am not worried on behalf of the OL, regardless of its in-game activity or lack thereof in MO.

Furthermore, if as I hear you really, personally, prefer Mike's short sallies to my contributions to the discussion-- if this is TL;dr for you-- then you can continue without my looking up and linking your 'history, depth, culture, substance'. Do. It. Yourself.

Back on topic, I transferred nothing from these forums to the MO forums. This is the provenance of what I've most recently re-posted:

1. Zac as Malachi, bishop's hat, posted the WIP and results of his work and his Solar's work as privately viewed documents in the cloud. He then posted them on the MoFos, at various dates possibly included in most of them, and at or around the same time, on the Wessex forums.
2. SV let someone out to play with the permissions of the RP / Lore forums at mortalonline.com and the whole wretched mess was deleted by vandals.
3. Rhodri commendably and assiduously recovered just about all of everything from the Google cache of that part of the forums, enlisting various others including but not limited to Otto, Zac, and me to help.
4. Otto is not a paper-shuffling type; he mislabeled some of Zac's posts that he reposted, for instance giving the orthodox version the title "The Cult Of Sol Invictus", and vice versa. Not a big deal, but something he did eventually fix, I believe.
5. Your guild leader dropped the Author Bomb on all things Lucius (and possibly Lucian) with his already-famous "that's a heresy", unquote.
6. I reposted, with somewhat clearer titling, and more individual posts, what had already been reposted by Otto, and originally posted by Malachi. It's the lore of the OL, regardless of what Wessex (the guild, the man) thinks of it. Because I can't expect Otto to keep his posts intact if it's all or partly heresy to his (sometimes roleplayed) character, and because I can't allow it to disappear or be edited away from what is the basis of something that I and other people are roleplaying outside of Wessex, there is no alternative. I can't have people joining AI and wondering about the religion of Soldeus as practiced there, and tell them "well, the guy who posted it, his guild got rid of / changed it".
7. I suggested to Otto that he might want to delete his post, as even if you brethren here come up with a slightly or entirely new take on your guild's lore, it'll be posted by the head of Wessex state, or the head of the Church of Wessex, and not Sir ("isn't there a war I should be starting, somewhere?") Osterwind.What can I say, except that he's a hip shooter? Fortunately for me I can now only watch approvingly as you all figure out what you're going to do differently in compliance with his statement as RL author/owner of internal Wessex lore.This is one of the reasons I fell in love with loreplay and roleplay, period, as this is not unique to this game or this guild though it has had some sterling examples here.

I am sorry you were insulted, Casilda, it was not my intention. We are all equal before Soldeus. Anything good that has emanated from me is attributed to Soldeus, anything bad is attributed to my own corrupt Inner Spark. I would say this is the same as the Usurper's work. His work was a great work of Soldeus through his hand, whilst, as we see, that His Spark was clean.

I agree that there is an apparent contradiction between believing in St. Jude and regarding Lucius as heresy, but the wisdom in His Majesty's words have not yet been revealed. We await His Majesty's explanation.

I'm not quite sure how I am supposed to feel about your comment regarding doing my own research. I am only a student of knowledge, if somebody with your skill and time has already down the work, I see no reason to reinvent the wheel. If you wish to, from now on, refuse to enlighten me with knowledge, and you have been a great source of information during my studies, then so be it, all is as Soldeus Wills, I can only work with the tools that are available to me.

I did not realise there was a another place where the Scripture if being safeguarded, although most, if not all, of the posts in here regarding the Scripture was authored by Malachi the Usurper.

I value your contributions to the discussion. You are a valued guest in this forum, and a repository of knowledge.

May Soldeus Guide us all upon the Path of the Righteous.

[Zakiyya Ajam]

*Squints her eyes, tossing her leg of 'bok behind her.*

Wut 'bout me then? Am I a valued guest as well?

*grabs a pillow from ...somewhere and places it under her feet*

So... What does this all mean?

[Azidano Valkran]

Zakiyya, you are not a valued guest.

You are an irreplaceable villein.

This is your home.

We are discussing religion. Are you a believer, Zakiyya?

[Zakiyya Ajam]

*Takes a long drink from her mug, gulping down the warm liquid*

Not sure. Never gave much thought to it all.

[Casilda Tametomo]

I am sorry you were insulted, Casilda, it was not my intention. We are all equal before Soldeus. Anything good that has emanated from me is attributed to Soldeus, anything bad is attributed to my own corrupt Inner Spark. I would say this is the same as the Usurper's work. His work was a great work of Soldeus through his hand, whilst, as we see, that His Spark was clean.

I agree that there is an apparent contradiction between believing in St. Jude and regarding Lucius as heresy, but the wisdom in His Majesty's words have not yet been revealed. We await His Majesty's explanation.

I'm not quite sure how I am supposed to feel about your comment regarding doing my own research. I am only a student of knowledge, if somebody with your skill and time has already down the work, I see no reason to reinvent the wheel. If you wish to, from now on, refuse to enlighten me with knowledge, and you have been a great source of information during my studies, then so be it, all is as Soldeus Wills, I can only work with the tools that are available to me.

I did not realise there was a another place where the Scripture if being safeguarded, although most, if not all, of the posts in here regarding the Scripture was authored by Malachi the Usurper.

I value your contributions to the discussion. You are a valued guest in this forum, and a repository of knowledge.

May Soldeus Guide us all upon the Path of the Righteous.

So long as you're not expressing distaste with my walls of text you're welcome to lean on them. If I become too long-winded for your use, do let me know directly instead of letting me pick it up on streetcorners. I fully realise that a reasonable answer to the question of "Why don't you ask Laylah/Casilda?" has often been "because I don't want to know that much about it."

Years ago I recommended and the Curia Ducis of the time informally went along with the idea-- after the lumensolis.com forums had a period of instability and some links to that site became unlisted or hard to follow, and after some other data losses-- that we redundantly archive material we were working on, on more than one server, and that one of those be Google docs. That would naturally tend to include stuff (lore, religion, etc.) written with our move to Mortal Online from Darkfall in mind.

Middle thing last, I don't see any dramatic problem with you all rewriting your lore to suit yourselves; the only significant potential problem I can see is down the path of nothing-doing:

While the Cult is mostly "harmless" and thus the Church chooses to let it be in the sake of avoiding an all-out war with the people at the time, it would be heresy to grant him official status within the lore.

You have to rewrite it, not let it hang.

I flatly do not like this vision, quoted above, this story of a church that tolerates heresy for years because of fear (and, from the perspective of practical roleplay, it's a very fantastic sort of fear-- too removed from the reality that if Lucian/Lucius hadn't been wanted in the history of the church at the time, he would not have been written into it to begin with, and could have been written out in the summer of 2012).

It's not a worthy backstory to switch to-- "I was in that church, and I wouldn't have let it slide"-- even though some sort of switch must be made.

It's also just bad loreplay/roleplay and guild management practice to tell new members, in effect, "Here's our religious lore, if you're interested, but it's wrong, don't get attached to it, we'll change it, but we don't know when or if we'll be arsed." Understandably, these things take time, but there should at least be an agenda-- and I realise I'm not currently addressing anyone who change the agenda with this concern, so don't take it personally, Azidano and Varrick. Varrick especially has no more important role than caretaker of his own health right now.

Rather trivially, anyone who portrays a belief in what you no longer "believe" is also left unsure of exactly how-why-on-what-basis to remonstrate with you, until you play up to this directive from your duke-- though I'm sure I for one can wing it.

It strikes me that these changes are rather late in coming, off-the cuff, when they functionally should date back to July of 2012. I understand the perceived or rather deeply felt need to punish the absent Zac and even why it would be nicer for Wessex to not have quite so much of what scripture there is in use in Mortal Online be signed by Malachi. Excommunication is the way to go. But while you're ret-conning "the Lucius" out of the Faith, why are you not (for instance) backdating the excommunication? It's not like Zac has been here at all to respond to any of it, so it might as well "have taken place" when the actual dissolution of the Kingdom of Wessex plus final split of players did. As, in practical terms, it did.

Lastly, if I haven't made it clear, the duke used to sound something like this: "You are herald queen of arms, Madame. It's your department, and you don't need to seek permission first." Why isn't he saying the same in effect to the Parson of Nave, or his designated writer, with regard to making a new scripture and revised history of the Church of Wessex -or- at least, why do you think that isn't a mandate from your sovereign that you actually have? The Church, after all, is more independent from the Crown than is the College of Arms. It's not a wholly rhetorical question, but I realise it may be sensitive, so no demand of an answer is implied.

[Varrick ChaosWielder]

I will speak with His Majesty on this subject, and we shall see what ensues. I believe a re-write of the lore is a possibility, albeit not the only one.

[Apoca Ailen]

I think a lot of the current older members (that are at least semi-active, anyways) are members, or were members, of the Ordo Lucius.


That being said, Casilda is whipping ass.

[Azidano Valkran]

Does His Majesty, the Duke of Wessex, Overarch of the Guild, have any comments to make?

I noticed that Your Grace has Graced us with his presence on the forums the other day.

We have been patiently waiting for a while, my lord.

I understand if you are busy with Real Life, in whuch case, my humble advice is to delegate the responsibility of an official, Ducal, response.

[Varrick ChaosWielder]

I have been in contact with His Majesty. We will have an answer shortly (coming day's). Patience is needed on the subject as there is a lot of issues to review and discuss that we are working on.