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Thread: Thesis #1: On The Nature Of The Sin Of Lying

  1. #1
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    Default Thesis #1: On The Nature Of The Sin Of Lying

    Found nailed to the door of the Church, the following document on a page of parchment:
    Quote Originally Posted by Azidano Valkran View Post
    Ladies and Gentlemen, Faithful Followers of Lucius, Beloved of Soldeus,

    I would like to thank each and every one of you for your generous donations.

    * * *
    This was collected PURELY by Tithes.

    Verily the goodwill in our community is vast, and the Clergy pray that your Inner Sparks are illuminated.

    In order for the Holy Church of Soldeus to buy the Tower deed for our physical church we require 800 cuprite.

    We have currently bought 550 cuprite, and therefore only need a further 250 cuprite in order to afford the Tower Deed.

    I have located a deal in Meduli, and have asked for a discount in return for a slice of the Pearly Gates, by the Will of Soldeus. In order to purchase the remaining 250 cuprite, I would need to buy it all from them for 75 gold.

    This means we ONLY require:

    10 Gold
    27 Silver
    4 Cuprum


    in order to be able to buy the remaining cuprite and buy the Tower Deed where we can all worship together as one body before Soldeus!

    I have already agreed to buy the cuprite, alas, indeed it is a Sin for I have made a deal that, with our current funds, I will not able to fulfil...

    It is with great humility I come to you, the Sons and Daughters of Soldeus to beg of you to spare me from the Sin of Deception.

    Yours faithfully

    Friar of the Holy Church of Soldeus...
    Disputation on the Nature of the Sin of Lying
    by Casilda Tametomo



    Out of love for the truth and the desire to bring it to light, the following proposition will be discussed; wherefore I request that those who are unable to meet to debate orally with me, may do so by letter.
    In the Name of our Radiant Lord.

    Amen.


    • The sin of lying is the sin of untruth.
    • A man may tell the truth only as well as he knows it.
    • Thus, a man who tells what he knows to be the truth has not lied, even if his knowledge was faulty; of him we say (thus) "he was mistaken".
    • Likewise, a man who tells what he knows to be untruth has lied, even if he was mistaken in his knowledge; of him we say (thus) "he lied, but was wrong enough that his lie proved true". This does not absolve him of his attempt at deception.
    • Of truth, it is said that the Eye of Soldeus sees all and His Radiant Light pierces through all lies and deceit; that those who shroud themselves in deception darken their spark and invite the dark and hateful one to tempt them further into shadow.
    • It is furthermore said that always in the Word of Soldeus is the truth spoken, and thus do the faithful always act aright with honesty and integrity; that we must speak truth always, even in the face of danger and of the powers of the dark.
    • No man should, then, lie, even with the purpose of making the truth to later conform to his lie.
    • No priest or clergyman should do so, then, even with the possibility that his flock will help him to make the truth conform with the lie he uttered.
    • To make even the most pious and faithful complicit in vouchsafing a lie is put temptation in the path of the righteous. Regardless of the temporal consequences, and regardless of the lack of apparent harm that results, the powers of the dark increase with this practice.
    • If the truth of a matter can be made to conform to the lie once uttered about it, this only corrects the situation, and not the actor or actors in the situation; it nullifies the state of deception; it does not absolve the deceptor.
    • The sin of the lie consists in the willful consciousness of difference between what is, and what is said to be. This does not go away when the difference is made up.
    • Sin darkens the soul's Spark. The Lord of Light will require reconciliation of the sinner with His Illuminary Self.
    • Reconciliation begins with recognition of the ongoing state of sin.
    • Having recognised sin, the conscientious soul will despise it.
    • Having despised the action which would separate the actor from the Radiant Lord, the faithful soul will not rejoice freely in the results of that action, nor congratulate others for saving him from its worldly consequences, without also expressing repentance and a firm resolve never to do the wrong again.
    • The proper reconciliation of a sin publicly committed and with the collusion, even if well-meant, of the public, might be said to require public penance.
    • Having been spared the consequences of a sin-- one might say, having been indulged in the matter-- is not the same as having been spared from sinning; responsibility is not something that can be borne away by others.




    Casilda Tametomo, Herald of the Aegis Imperium,
    «Si oblitus fuero usque ad finem omnia opera eorum»

    Wer war der Thor, wer Weiser, Bettler oder Kaiser? Ob Arm, ob Reich, im Tode gleich.

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    Some ancient authorities argue that it is not the correspondence between that which is stated, and the objective truth of the matter that is of import; rather the intent, whether that be good or evil. Therefore, one who tells the truth knowing ill shall come of it has sinned, whereas one who lies to bring about that which is good is without blame.

    Being but a poor straying lamb in the flock of Soldeus, I pass no judgement on whether the said argument is sound or heretical; I simply draw attention to it.

  3. #3

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    No, no Camarro, Casilda, indeed, has a valid point and a strong argument. She quotes the following section from the Scripture of Soldeus: Sin and Virtue

    It clearly states:

    Truth: The Eye of Soldeus sees all and His radiant Light pierces through all lies and deceit. Those who shroud themselves in deception darken their spark and invite the dark and hateful one to tempt them further into shadow. Always in the Word of Soldeus is the truth spoken, and thus do the faithful always act with upright honesty and integrity. We must speak truth always, even in the face of danger and of the powers of the dark.
    Here, Soldeus has spoken: One cannot lie under any circumstance. It would be easier to worm my way out of this one and say: "Well I didn't actually STATE that I had the money." Or I had appended my deal with: "Soldeus Willing". However, these are cop-outs. Whilst my words, to him were TECHNICALLY true, I had chosen them carefully as I was, indeed, 'shrouding myself in deception'. Thus by deception I am at fault as quoted thus:

    Deceit: The most dangerous and powerful tool of Umbra is that of
    Deception. He is the master of the art of concealing or distorting the truth for the purpose of misleading the Children of Soldeus, and the propagator of it. To be unfaithful to the Heavenly Father is an act of deceit and those who are false to duty or break their word are on the path to unending darkness.
    This act of deceiving somebody else into obligating themselves into a trade with myself is a Sin, no doubt about this, and I thank my fellow believer, Casilda Tametoto for reminding us ALL that no Mortal is perfect, even if they are a Friar in the Church of Soldeus.

    The only point I believe is weak is the implication that the people are to blame, there is no Sin upon them as they have not performed any act of deception, in fact, they have only performed acts of Virtue considering that they have donated to the construction of the Church of Soldeus.

    And so as a consequence I take full responsibility for my actions as they were mine, and mine alone, and I refer to the Reverend Father Varrick ChaosWielder's judgement on any means to purge me of this Sin and if I have conducted myself in an unholy manner, or even if I have forfeited my right to even be part of the Holy Mother Church's beloved Clergy, who should be the upstanding example to all Mortals.

    Soldeus is the Ultimate Forgiver

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    (This is my first time as a Protestant, but I am glad to see that the community is not going easy on me.)
    Quote Originally Posted by Azidano Valkran View Post
    The only point I believe is weak is the implication that the people are to blame, there is no Sin upon them as they have not performed any act of deception, in fact, they have only performed acts of Virtue considering that they have donated to the construction of the Church of Soldeus.
    I prayerfully hope not to have implied that the congregation in Wessex is to blame, but to admonish (as a way of upholding the righteous) that they must not be led into temptation by bad example or through praise for their virtue which implies to them a power which we do not possess; that is, to be able to wipe a sin from someone else by our own efforts without a dialogue between the sinner's conscience and the Radiant Lord.

    Truly, as Brother Azidano has said, Soldeus is the Ultimate Forgiver; furthermore, it follows that Reconciliation with His Radiance cannot be accomplished by third parties, as even the Sacrifice of Lucius was one of Himself to Himself for our sake.
    Last edited by Casilda Tametomo; 01-09-2014 at 09:20 PM. Reason: Religion is HARD.
    Casilda Tametomo, Herald of the Aegis Imperium,
    «Si oblitus fuero usque ad finem omnia opera eorum»

    Wer war der Thor, wer Weiser, Bettler oder Kaiser? Ob Arm, ob Reich, im Tode gleich.

  5. #5
    Varrick ChaosWielder's Avatar
    Varrick ChaosWielder is offline Former Parson of the Holy Church of Sol Invictus
    Convicted of treason by His Grace, Bernardo Orienne
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    Brother Azidano:
    I hope that you can see the err in your way on this subject. While I do believe that you had good intentions on the subject, it is important to always be completely truthful. I believe that you have sinned in this issue, but I also believe you are repentant and understand what you did wrong. As such, I shall provide you with a way to purify yourself of sin, so that you may be closer to the Radiant Lord.

    You are to perform a pilgrimage to Tindrem, where you shall perform a public oration on the Radiant Lord. You shall explain the nature of virtue and discuss to those that are willing our tenants. You shall stay in Tindrem until you can rise 10 Gold in Tithes from citizen's of Tindrem. I would recommend you offer to perform blessings, sermon's, baptism and any other method that are available to you as a Clergymen. Put your affairs in order, and start this pilgrimage at your earliest convenience, but no later than one third of a season from now. ((1 month))

    May the Radiant Lord shine upon thee.
    Yours respectfully in Soldeus,
    His Excellency, The Reverend Father Varrick ChaosWielder, Abbot of the Church of Soldeus
    Head of the Church of Soldeus|The Parson of Nave|Retired Chancellor of Wessex
    http://s10.postimg.org/pnqxqqgvt/var...oswielder2.png

  6. #6

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    Thank you for providing an opportunity to alleviate me of Sin, Father Varrick.

    I shall start my preparations for this pilgrimage to do the Good Works of the Lord.
    Last edited by Azidano Valkran; 02-03-2014 at 07:04 PM.

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    It occurs to me that, in a city as depraved as Tindrem, Brother Azidano may suffer ridicule from the mob, or even worse. May I therefore offer my services as escort and bodyguard? Not only may I help to protect the valuable personage of our much loved Brother, but it will also afford me a front row seat for what I am sure will be an unforgettable experience.

  8. #8
    Varrick ChaosWielder's Avatar
    Varrick ChaosWielder is offline Former Parson of the Holy Church of Sol Invictus
    Convicted of treason by His Grace, Bernardo Orienne
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    Brother Azidano may bring pilgrims with him if he so chooses.
    Yours respectfully in Soldeus,
    His Excellency, The Reverend Father Varrick ChaosWielder, Abbot of the Church of Soldeus
    Head of the Church of Soldeus|The Parson of Nave|Retired Chancellor of Wessex
    http://s10.postimg.org/pnqxqqgvt/var...oswielder2.png

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